Female partners still unloved - the tricky relationship between secretaries and women lawyers

A Pragmatic Solution

I have a solution to the problem:

Male partners - female secretaries.
Female partners - male secretaries.

Da-dah! Problem solved and everyone happy.
(plus, a lot of young men with domination complexes will be really, really happy.)

X and Y -31 Oct 2011 | 13:21

Me too

As a female associate, I have never had a good experience working with women partners or senior associates. And many of my colleagues/peers say the same.

Female Associate -31 Oct 2011 | 18:14

Another Pragmatic Solution

"As a female associate, I have never had a good experience working with women partners..."

Here is the answer to this problem:

Male partners - female secretaries and female associates.

Female partners - male secretaries and male associates.

Da-dah! Second problem solved.

(PS, seems to me there are some serious issues here related to gender and power, and the lack of acceptance of women with power by other women who don't have power. Are women just bad at working together in a hierarchy?...discuss....?)

X & Y -01 Nov 2011 | 07:38

Life

I am a female solicitor. Whatever the author says about "sisterhood" improving I'm afraid may not be true. I would prefer to work for men as the rule book (although ultimately restrictive) is more straightforward. Women in particular with any kind of real 'power' or control in whatever context (even, dare I say it at home - think of the classic mother-in-law daughter-in-law scenario) are often seen as a threat by other women. Often they are not helped in terms of role models, nor is the environment neutral. Often the more power the woman has in whatever context, the more hostile critical and bitchy relationship dynamics become. Where the tunnel focus men often adopt helps them be more straightforward in their approach, the traditional (and enduring) demands on women to be sensitive to others and multi-task the varied roles they adopt means there are often levels of complexity in relationships with women in power which can become hard work and unappealing.

Female lawyer -01 Nov 2011 | 10:31

Woman partners are generally awful for men to work for as well. They micro-manage, are brittle and defensive, and take everything personally.

anon -01 Nov 2011 | 13:30

Partner/secretary relationships cannot be quantified because 142 female secretaries were asked and none preferred a women partner. What about the thousands of secretaries that didn't get asked?

Working relationships are built on individuals and yes, there may be a certain generalised viewpoint of female partners, that yes, to a certain extent can be backed up with this (limited) research, but these comments above that suggest that all are a horror to work for and women working for women is a nightmare is just ridiculous.

Also, can we take a moment to look at the research this is based on... 47% had no view, therefore neither preferring men or women. Yes, none preferred women but nearly half didn't have a preference at all! No comment on this...?!

anon -01 Nov 2011 | 15:23

"47% had no opinion"

And there's your answer.

"so if you're a secretary, the assumption is that your education is limited and that you are just not that smart"

If you're going to scrape a barrel for something to write about, could you look into this instead?

A Secretary -01 Nov 2011 | 15:59

To 'A Secretary'

I don't think the article supports the view that secretaries are not smart.

The article says: "law is a very snobby profession, so if you're a secretary, the assumption is that your education is limited..." - ie snobbish people make that assumption; not that the assumption is correct.

And in the next sentence, the article says "are female lawyers worse? I tend to doubt it..." - the author is flat-out disagreeing with the responses to the survey.

Have I read this correctly?

Anonymous -01 Nov 2011 | 16:21

Ironic

Perhaps it is ironic that a discussion about inter-female working culture often being fractious and difficult, has itself become fractious and difficult.

Freud -01 Nov 2011 | 17:24

Pressures on Women Partners

This survey tell us very little. It possibly points to partnership not being a very attractive place for many women lawyers. Just like boardrooms in big companies not being a great place for women directors.

Simon Broomer -01 Nov 2011 | 20:26

To 'Anonymous'

I was not suggesting that the author does agree with that statement, merely that if she is looking for subject matter of more substance, she might like to ask why secretaries are considered to be stupid. Around half the secretaries I have worked with have degrees and for all the debate about diversity in City firms and increasing the numbers of women in the profession, this pool of knowledge and enthusiasm remains untapped and, for the most part, ignored. Perhaps it is time to commission a different survey?

A Secretary -02 Nov 2011 | 14:03

I have to say I agree...

Bitchy, unsupportive and overly critical female lawyers are the reason I left my role at a MC firm. I worked with five female lawyers exclusively and they were absolute bullies.

I am intelligent, articulate and capable but they would never treat me as such because obviously you must be thick if you do not wish to be a corporate lawyer.

I now work for a well respected top 10 law firm. The culture at my firm is supportive and although I work for a female ex fee earner, she is nothing like the lawyers I used to work for.

Anon -02 Nov 2011 | 17:44

"Before we go on, let's be honest: Working as a non-lawyer in a firm is a thankless, dead-end job. Need I remind you that lawyers are under a lot of pressure, which means they tend to be abrupt and nasty?"

Er... maybe it's just you?

I don't know anyone in my workplace who is regularly "nasty" or even unduly abrupt. Do you perhaps work with losers?

Mutton Jeff -04 Nov 2011 | 05:16

wedding bells

Perhaps those who responded negatively were actually looking for marriage prospects in the work place...

Wedding -04 Nov 2011 | 14:26

Unrecognisable

I just don't recognise these statements. I have worked in top 10 and US firms, and can honestly say that there have been brilliant, personable and idiotic and unpleasant lawyers at both places of both genders. I have seen other lawyers bullied cruelly by both genders. I currently work in a team of women which is fantastic, and with a male partner who is great too. I have had male and female secretaries and they fall into two groups: enthusiastic and competent vs lazy nightmares.

You people either have issues or are working at dreadful firms.

Context -04 Nov 2011 | 15:49

Bemused

Hey, as the saying goes, be nice to people on your way up, as you might meet them on the way down. Apply this to secretaries (who may marry your boss - then you'd be in trouble if you'd been foul to them) and all junior staff. Unfortunately, too many younger lawyers have spent too much time watching the Apprentice or (for the oldies) Dynasty where being horrible at work is seen as the way to get on. It isn't, but I don't see this as a gender issue at all.

Huh? -04 Nov 2011 | 16:06

I work for a female partner and although apprehensive at first, once I had gotten to know her, we quickly developed a great working relationship. I've worked for a number of female associates and found that some I love and some I hate; but the same can be said of the male associates I've worked for, it all really depends on the personality of the fee earner, not their gender. So although those surveyed seem to have a preference for working for men, there were many surveyed who had no preference at all and therefore probably take the same approach to me - personality is important for a winning working relationship, not gender.

Legal Secretary -04 Nov 2011 | 16:22

It cuts both ways

Women do have advantages in the office too. I worked for a woefully inadequate female associate who attempted to pin a mistake on me (at the time an assistant).

However it turned out she had been sleeping with a partner. Therefore in spite of documentary evidence I ended up leaving.

Geordie -09 Nov 2011 | 09:53

Female Partners

I have seen the phenomenon before. What I found was that female attorneys in some cases acted the same as men and in others they were tougher than men. Basically in order to be accepted as a professional, female attorneys emulate the cultural structure created by their male counterparts.

Female secretaries expect, through gender solidarity, that when they had an issue, female attorneys would be more understanding than the male counterparts. When a female attorney shows herself NOT to be more understanding, they are perceived as snooty, bitches, etc.

I recall a female secretary saying to me, “how can she not understand that I have to leave early to get my kids. She’s a woman. She is supposed to understand.” So I asked the female secretary “and if you worked for a man?” “Well, they can't understand because they don’t have kids. They have to be different it’s the world they live in.“

The gist of it is that because the attorney you work for is a woman she has to be more understanding of you because she is a woman. But if you work for a man, he can't be understanding of you because he is a man. So the man’s position is forgivable because he just can't understand. The woman position is unforgivable because she is supposed to understand. Still at the end of the day, don’t they have the same need, to get their work done? Needless to say it was not a productive conversation.

Law Firm Manager -10 Nov 2011 | 18:17