Career Clinic: Self-funding the LPC - a bad idea?

I would say that with a 2:1 and BBB at A-level you should certainly not discount a career in the law simply due to the cost of self funding.

I self funded through the GDL and LPC, and whilst this has left a sizeable debt going forward, it is certainly manageable.

I would imagine that your university debts are slightly higher than mine, what with the increased level of fees, but again, hopefully these can be re-paid over an elongated period.

I think that the more important thing for you to address would be any lack of relevant legal experience. Your experiences abroad would make you very desirable in the right firm, especially if you speak another language. However, lack of relevant legal experience will be a greater obstacle than three Bs at A-level or some 'not so good' degree marks.

I think that if you think carefully about perhaps gaining some legal experience (either at home or abroad) over the next year, rather than something not related to law, you might find that you secure a training contract before long, which will make the financial side of things seem less daunting.

Daniel -21 Aug 2012 | 16:29

Some Harsh Questions to ask yourself

A few questions and pointers which are intended to be constructive. You got BBB at 'A' Level and attended a top 20 law school - that sounds unlikely unless you got in through clearing or did a joint honours programme with a language on which lower grades might be accepted for 'bums on seats'. A good 2.1 but with some low marks? You can't get a good 2.1 with low marks. If they didn't count towards your degree they will matter on application to law firms.

Your profile is that of a strong 2.2 student. You haven't got a TC yet. If you set your sights on the top 50 law firms you are very much wasting your time. Contact directly a cross section of high street firms who may not advertise TCs and ask what they think. Remember there is a significant number of better qualified paralegals out there itching for the TC. They are your competitors. Applications for TCs are two years in advance. Secure one first and then take the LPC. From your statement which I appreciate is seeking advice, you do not convince as wanting a career in law. Ask yourself the question honestly. Good luck with what you do.

Constructive -21 Aug 2012 | 20:44

ILEX

Earn while you learn, and qualify more quickly than you would if you paralegal for years in the vain hope of getting a TC.

The little known fact is that completing the LPC bars you from starting down the ILEX route. I've seen dozens of paralegals hoping that they'd buck the trend and get a TC. None did. If they had just got their heads down and gotten on with ILEX, then they would not have been saddled with false hopes and LPC debt whilst they worked.

charlienovember -22 Aug 2012 | 13:34

Go for it

I got ABBB at A Level and a 2:1 degree from a top 10 uni. When I started the LPC (in 2002) at my first lecture the lecturer asked for a show of hands as to how many people already had training contracts. Of the 80 or so students in the room there was one other in addition to me. I had friends at Uni who had better A Level grades and got a "better" 2:1 than me who couldn't get training contracts before the LPC. They did end up getting them at smaller firms during the course of the LPC. The reason I was successful was down to all the extra curricular activities on my CV. As one of the previous posters points out, it isn't all down to grades. Have some interesting hobbies that you commit to (not just reading and gardening) and get some decent work experience under your belt from a variety of places, ideally legal. The work experience will also help focus your mind on what you really want out of this. It can't be a bad thing to have the LPC under your belt, even if you end up doing something completely different.

Claire -22 Aug 2012 | 16:18

Been there

I have BBB at A-level and a 2.1 in law from the University of Leicester and now work for a silver circle firm. My strength was that I had masses of extra-curricular activities at uni and legal experience as a paralegal to put on my CV. It sounds at the moment, without relevant experience and anything else, you might struggle to identify what makes you a better candidate than the next person.

My advice - throw yourself into law wholeheartedly, get some legal experience and churn out those applications and you will surely get there if you want to. I didn't even have the A-level grades to apply to many of the firms I wanted to apply to - I met their HR teams at careers fairs and sold myself and my experience, and they told me that they would make an exception and consider my application. This was ultimately how I got my job. Keep at it (ignore the comment from 'Constructive' above). Good luck.

Done that -22 Aug 2012 | 18:25

Adjust your sights and back yourself

Look for a TC in a legal 200 firm, perhaps a good regional one with a City outpost if you can.

Once you have relevant experience under your belt and say 1/2 yrs PQE - aim to move to a legal 100 firm. A colleague of mine with a 2.1 from Hull moved to a very decent top 20 firm after about 2 yrs PQE gained at a legal 100 firm. He did have some personality and extras on his CV.

In my case I started out in a niche HS practice and ended up in the legal 100, and this was with A's at A-Level but with a Russell Group 'Desmond'. I too self funded at quite a risk.

Back yourself and see how things go. There is always a percentage game in play, so like others have said, don't set your goals too high initially, but your sights can always be adjusted later.

Good luck.

Self funder who climbed up -23 Aug 2012 | 09:20

Constructive

Hope to clarify the point. From the original posting it does not appear that you have any meat to your application. The posts about experience and masses of other activities are correct, but these are what should be gained concurrent with the degree. Only the original poster will know this, but in the four years of your degree do you have any value added for your applications? If you do then sing them from the roof tops. You are about to spend another year abroad in non law activity, wonderful but what does this add? This will be five years in total with possibly little extra to enhance your applications. If you have the meat to add, then go for it but I would say get the TC first. Signing up for a LPC with a weak CV is good money after bad.

Constructive -23 Aug 2012 | 11:20

Ignore some of Constructive's comments. If you have a 2:1 from a top 20 uni, you have a 2:1 - not a 2:2. That means you're still in the game for City law firms. These days the top 10 will probably bin your application due to A-level requirements but the rest are open.

So focus on the tier below the top 10.

The key is the CV as a whole, not grades. A 2:1, like good A-levels, is a way to not get sifted out by standard processes. It's everything else that decides if you get an interview - so both legal and non-legal work experience, any extra-curricular activity that involves working with others and/or communicating, these are what willmake you stand-out. A year abroad will look good if you do something interesting - and no, getting drunk on a beach is not interesting from a law firm's perspective, nor is seeing sights. If you're CV is not too impressive in terms of activities before, use this upcoming year abroad very wisely.

A 2:1 from a top 20 uni shouldn't need to pay for their own LPC. So make sure you don't need to by improving your CV. Paying for one's own LPC is a gamble, no doubt about it.

Magic Circle Associate -23 Aug 2012 | 12:18

constructive

My final posting on this topic.

I am often asked a question similar to the original posting. As somebody looking to recruit or point in the right direction, I will discuss the CV. A common statement is "I have a good 2.1". I would expect to see an average of 65 or above. More often than not the hopeful candidate has an average of 60/61. I am not dismissing that as a 2.1 at all, nor dismissing the amount of work and effort that has resulted in this achievement. It is a very good result - but if somebody tells me they have a "good 2.1" I would expect to see it. Marks in Year One don't count towards the degree but are increasingly considered as part of the academic profile for recruitment. If there are low marks, this will need to be explained. A-levels too, will form part of the opinion. Times are tough. The added value to the CV must start on day one of the Degree, if not before. Many have done a few days with a firm prior to university. Increasingly firms want to see how a candidate for a TC matches their key competencies. This advice is given or should be given by the Law Schools and their Careers Teams. Firms state their requirements at careers talks. It is worrying when at the end of their degree a student or graduate says "I can't get a TC" and asks what should I do to beef up my application, when they have ignored all the advice they were given to date. This may not be the case with the original poster - but if it is, reflect on whether you really want a career in law. Good luck on your year abroad and with whatever you decide to do.

constructive -23 Aug 2012 | 14:54

Possible but think carefully

I have BBB at A Level, 2.1 in my degree from University of Essex and self-funded the LPC. I eventually found a TC with a high street firm and whilst I am happy to finally qualify I would not recommend it to anyone. I have near £40,000 of debt, earn a low salary with little prospect of earning a high salary and do question whether with hindsight I would have done the same thing. I would recomend looking at other careers. Unfortunately, I think that the knowledge of something being difficult, elusive makes it all the more appealing but I would urge you to consider where you want to be in 5 years. I am female, qualifying at nearly 28 and am not where I wanted to be or thought I would be by this age. Consider other options first and if you still want to do LPC, take a year out paralegally, apply like made for training contracts with funding and make your decision then. Hope the above helps.

Pamela Titmus -23 Aug 2012 | 15:42

Get a TC first

I achieved AAAAB at A-level, a non-law 2.1 from York, and Commendations for both GDL and LPC and have just secured my TC which starts 6 months from now. They are refunding my LPC too. It took me 2.5 years to land it, during that time I spent every holiday for 3 years working unpaid at 8 different law firms. I also led committees, captained sports teams and edited campus newspaper. What it shows is that competition, as you know, cannot be underestimated. I gambled and self-funded the LPC. Many other students did the same and just gave up, packed in the law.

The key theme of my point is persevere. Get more work experience, and aim for top 100 firms who look for profile not just test scores as indicators of ability to contribute.

Thomas E G -23 Aug 2012 | 16:13

GOFORIT

3 B's at A Level. 2.1 (barely), work experience - legal and otherwise, lots of leadership extra curriculars, a sales attitude on my applications (spnt 40 hrs on one app), 4 1/2 mnths in my room in the evenings studying the FT, Firms, how to ace assessment centres and doing applications & I Got TC with a top 20. If you don't have faith in yourself - it's not going to happen. The rejections are tough to take. Try and get a good job (finance related as opposed to paralegal) & study PT. SELL SELL SELL. You are a commodity. SELL yourself in the applications - overkill is fine. Buy books to help with apps and interviews and psychometric testing. Go to Open Days, network like crazy & understand business development. Good luck.

GOFORIT -24 Aug 2012 | 04:11

Yes, it's a terrible idea, and anyone who tells you different is a mug. The law schools pump out 100% more LPC grads than there are jobs every year. You might be pretty well qualified compared to most of them (there are huge numbers of utter window lickers amongst them), but if you weren't good enough to get a fully funded law school place in the ordinary course of business, what makes you think you'll suddenly be incredibly employable with the LPC under your belt (an expensive, tedious, pointless, and dead-ended course of absolutely no value if you don't make it as a lawyer). Don't do it.

Voice of Reason -24 Aug 2012 | 08:39

Find something else more satisfying

I was fortunate to get my TC fully-funded many years ago at a time when local authorities still largely funded university courses so I finished my legal studies and began my TC with very little debt. After 12 years in the profession I left it. Many do by the time they are 5-8 years PQE. To the extent you can, look around the profession: how many 45 year olds-plus do you see? Now consider that the legal profession is contracting in the brave new world of commoditisation and race-to-the-bottom of pricing of legal services.

I could only recommend a legal career to those who get a TC with full funding for the LPC/GLD with an eye to exiting before 10 years PQE, possibly 15 if you're fortunate to reach a lucrative partnership (not as common as you may think). The future economics of practising law are not as favourable as they have been for the last 20 years or so. Target your academic spending to more fulfilling career options which have greater chances of seeing you through to your 50s, at least!

Gone -24 Aug 2012 | 12:22

New York Bar

Rather than doing the LPC now why don't you sit the New York Bar whilst paralegalling and then qualify via Overseas Lawyer scheme? A possible second route.

Lawman -24 Aug 2012 | 12:26

I have a CCD in my A Levels, a first from a low tier university and managed to secure a training contract with a silver circle law firm (after self-funding the LPC).

The key is to demonstrate solid work experience and extra-curricular activities that can be added onto your CV.

Good luck!

CC -27 Aug 2012 | 05:58

@Lawman

No disrespect intended, but I sometimes wonder why people come up with strategies such as that you proposed, as if HR in global law firms are completely ignorant. Why would a firm take on someone with a New York bar qualification, but zero years practice. Note also that the job market in New York is more competitive than here and that is for people with JDs from US universities. When will people realise that the New York bar is not a back door into an English law firm?

Associate -28 Aug 2012 | 13:19

cc

I am delighted for CC, but bit jealous as well. I got BBC and ended up with 2:1 completed LPC and have 5 years of experience combined both in immigration and personal injury work. i have no training contract secured.

I self funded my LPC. I am earning £18,000 per annum. I am told when I apply for jobs non law related that I am so commited to law. When I apply for City law firms or other my application get refused saying there are better candidates.

please let me know how i can overcome this

thanks

cathy -28 Aug 2012 | 14:07

Go for it!

I have BCC at A-level and a 2:2 from a distinctly average university. Nonetheless, I self-funded the LPC and secured a TC at a medium sized regional firm for the following year. I did, however, have a couple of years experience working as a paralympic. I also had impressive extra-curricular activities (sports achievements) on my CV. My point is, no matter how stupid/lazy you are at school/uni, where there is a will there is certainly a way. I was very determined to secure a TC, ensured my applications were flawless (except for the dire academic results of course!), and I very quickly did.

Shortly after qualifying I moved to a UK Top 100 firm and I now work in financial services in the City.

Original poster - with a well written application form/CV you should have no problem at all securing a TC. Ignore any negative comments - they are utter pessimists. This type of pessimism seems to pervade the legal industry unfortunately - it's full of people with extremely bad attitudes.

Cathy - my heart goes out to you - it seems you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Ever thought about legal recruitment? People may have a slight(!) dislike for you, but you can use your knowledge of the legal industry as leverage and could also earn a much more decent salary in the process...

Desmond Tutu -28 Aug 2012 | 18:14

Tutu

Thank you for your advice. Yes I have considered legal recruitment - still no luck. I got my CV and covering letter done by a professional - still no luck. I even applied to the CPS for admin jobs - still got refused. I would really like to work for either the police or the CPS as I genuinely feel I will get job satisfaction as I would be giving back something to the community. Unfortunately I am stuck wherever I am working right now.

cathy -29 Aug 2012 | 11:06

Don't give up

To the OP: For goodness' sake don't self-fund the LPC. Cathy's experience and that of so many others is a good example of why. Concentrate on getting that TC, and try and get some paralegal or at least vaguely legal work experience in the meantime.

To Cathy: I do feel sorry for you. The only thing I can say really (and to the OP too) is to keep trying. If crime and immigration are your thing, you might want to try getting a job at the Legal Service Commission, which was full of LPC-self-funders when I was there, all pretty unhappy with not having got a training contract, but many of whom used it as a stepping stone to something better. You might also want to do some relevant volunteering to boost your CV - I was an Independent Custody Visitor at the same time as working at the LSC.

While at the LSC and volunteering, I also applied for vac schemes, which neither of you should discount even though you've graduated. In the end, three years after graduating, I got the TC I wanted with a City firm (and got the LPC funded in advance).

Lawyers I know fall into two groups - those who breezed into several TC offers and those who had a brutal struggle to get one. I was in the latter group.

The moral is not to give up - I applied for over 100 paralegal jobs (unsuccessfully) during my years in the wilderness. I have a friend who applied for a similar number of training contracts each year for three years in a row - she's now qualified at a US firm.

In this game, if you really want it badly enough, you will get there in the end. Good luck.

Ice -29 Aug 2012 | 16:43

Experience

Depressing isn't it, the whole ethos of modern recruitment - having worked at three very good firms in the City over 16 years since qualification, all of whom have high trainee entry requirements, I remain convinced that the process misses the point (finding good future lawyers) just as often as it unearths them.

I'm coming to the view that emphasis on degree and A level results is a distraction which only has limited correlation with becoming/being a good lawyer - I'm an advocate of something like a GMAT test score, or verbal, numerical and abstract reasoning tests - I think those would better assess ability and potential for a career in practice.

As many posters say, working the system with borderline academics involves getting some good experience on the inside - I'd say paralegal for a year - work hard make a good impression, ideally in the City or one of the big regionals, see if that opens any doors.

Anon -30 Aug 2012 | 10:52

Lessons for now

Well done to the OP for generating responses in such good number. I hope they have provided food for thought and help with the next stage of your career. Good luck. In the next few weeks another batch of excited and hopeful students will commence their degree. The first group to be subjected to the annual £9K tuiton fee. Let's hope that they are encouraged to read such postings and take heed of the cross section of advice given from the coal face. Times are tough out there. Reality and knowledge of what is required and what life outside academia is like, needs to begin on day one.

constructive -30 Aug 2012 | 14:27

Clarify

Associate.

I didn't suggest that the New York Bar was a back door route of did I suggest he go to New York to practise.

The OP is worried about paying the LPC fees. I suggested he get a paralegal job and do the NYB which would allow him to qualify via Overseas Qualified Scheme.

The main element is getting the paralegal job. I have worked in firms where paralegals work as equal fee earners to qualified staff with the same responsibility.

lawman -30 Aug 2012 | 14:44

No regrets about self-funding the LPC

I sympathise with you but before I offer you my advice I'll tell you my story (if you're interested) because I hope it will help you a bit.

I have ABBC (tend to leave the C out when I'm not required to disclose it), went to UCL and then funded the GDL and the LPC through work and loan finance. I have plenty of legal experience, speak fluent French, did loads of pro bono at law school and have worked every summer, Christmas and Easter holiday in investment banks (generally legal departments) since I was 18 to pay for my education. Despite doing everything I was told to do to position myself for a TC I didn't get one so upon completing the LPC in June 2010 I took a job in a hedge fund business working for the legal department with a General Counsel and doing legal reviews of corporate documentation for hedge funds for the Operational Due Diligence department. My legal qualifications helped me secure the job and it is so well paid that it is paying back my gigantic loan without any trouble. Within a year I was promoted and a few months after that our General Counsel left me with responsibility for the legal department and I now report directly to our COO. Two years on I'm waiting for the formal offer for a training contract to arrive any day now. It's a huge relief and I'm glad I didn't give up.

In terms of advice I would say that it's clearly a risk to pay for the LPC. If you end up as a paralegal or in another lower income job it could be financially crippling. If, however, you think outside the box and you know that you're a very motivated and resourceful person it could be well worth the gamble. Even if I hadn't finally landed a TC it still got me my current job and I'm reasonably confident that I could still have used my LPC in the non-legal hedge fund industry where legal knowledge and skills are hugely useful. I say I’m reasonably confident because I was being head hunted for other jobs.

I would also agree with the person who advised you that no legal experience is an issue. It's very difficult to convince a law firm that you really want to be a lawyer if you haven't got any relevant experience. Get it sorted!

There's one other thing I was wondering whether or not to even write...I'm not claiming to know anything about you because I don't believe your ambition can be ascertained based on your post! But I would make sure a career in law is really what you want. If you really want it then stop at nothing...self-fund the LPC and hunt down a TC. If you have any doubts, however, I would think very carefully. It’s hard. You’re struggling now but it’ll probably get worse before it gets better. My story is now not a bad one to tell but that's only because I have finally been successful. The last four years of chasing a TC have been extremely difficult and the only reason I've stuck at it is because I wanted it so badly. My 17 year old sister who had suggested she might follow me into the legal profession has recently told me she's changed her mind and I was flooded with a sense of relief. I don't want her to struggle like I did with constant rejection, anxiety, self-inflicted pressure and constant knocks to her confidence. I probably sound a little pathetic there but I've always had a bring it on kind of attitude but the whole experience really rocked by belief that I was capable of anything I really put my mind to.

Sorry for ranting on a bit but I hope this helps a bit. I wish you all the best. See you in practice?

JM -31 Aug 2012 | 12:46

Top law firm unlikely

I work closely with the HR team of one of the top 10 UK law firms. Although I am not very familiar with the intricacies of the legal profession as some of the others who commented on the question, I would like to say that having worked on projects such as graduate recruitment and training, I'd be inclined to advise against self-funding the LPC as this idea may end up costing a lot of money and not lead anywhere at all.

For top law firms, excellent grades are a given. As others have already said, these firms will look for other things that set you apart. If securing TC with these firms is an issue, then I would suggest that this tells you a lot about the likelihood of getting employed by them with self-funded training. They don't always end up recruiting those who do get the TC, let alone the ones they didn't consider suitable for their TC in the first place! I would look for a smaller firm to fund the LPC to start with, get some experience and then think about your next move.

anon -31 Aug 2012 | 14:50

As a Training Principal a few thoughts. Much that has been said (including by Constructive) is true. Your A-Levels will bar you from 'top' City firms, unless the the rest of your CV is interesting enough for the firm to overlook it as a blip. That means a good 2.1, and Constructive is right, we do look at individual grades, including in the first year, and we take an average of final year grades, and we are looking for an average of 65+, and a consistency to the average. A gap year should be spent wisely, acquiring relevant skills (including soft skills), not sightseeing, lying on a beach etc (in the heady days of the early noughties, the gap year of many candidates was either Thailand or the Inca Trail: the poor fools thought they had done something unusual, when to me it was 'oh no, not another Inca Trail'). It doesn't have to be paralegalling, which is only likely to be a positive if in the same sort of firm you are applying to, as it suggests you know the atmosphere and can survive it. Your CV has to demonstrate intelligence (exam grades) and your personality and ability to fit in to a pressured office environment. Qualities like enthusiasm and ambition are very positive, although can be hard to convey in a CV. Enthusiasm may best be shown in hobbies and interests (reading and socialising is what most candidates put, and is not distinctive). And if you go and work in a school in Malawi or somewhere, bear in mind we are well aware that there are companies which specialise in organising this sort of gap year experience, and it only impresses us if it was done without that kind of help. It's also true that it isn't necessary to start in the City to find a career in the City. Lastly, don't bother with the NY Bar: lawyers here and in NY regard it as a joke: fine if you are a badge collector, but it isn't serious.

Recruiter -03 Sep 2012 | 15:37

Further thoughts on the value of the NY Bar exam...

Describing the NY bar exam as a "joke" and not serious is a bit flippant. It is an extremely demanding exam - far more so than the LPC in my view (having done both). But I agree the New York bar is pointless if your objective is to practise in the UK. (As an aside any objective to practise in NY needs to be real too - particularly in the current economic environment-, e.g. you are an already experienced specialist with an independent basis for the right to work there so you don't need to be sponsored).

Somewhere in the Mid Atlantic -04 Sep 2012 | 08:45

Local authority?

If you are considering or would be prepared to consider a training contract with a local authority, then self-funding may be the only option. Local authorities tend to recruit trainees to start immediately, and if so, would expect you to have completed the LPC. For that reason, applicants sometimes work in a paralegal or non-legal role with the authority they'd like to work for, while studying part time for the LPC. And while ideally local authorities would recruit applicants with a long-term commitment to the public sector, there is quite a bit of movement between the sectors post-qualification. All the best with your career, whatever you choose to do.

Local authority solicitor -05 Sep 2012 | 14:24

Reply

You would be better getting a para job in the UK for your year as some firms are asking for a years experience before they offer articles. ( e.g. Duncan Lewis a Legal Aid firm )

Further, having been a para for twelve months you have been in a position to prove yourself.

You will be completely screwed if you self fund and don't get anything - a debt for years and no career. Don't do it - it is like a rock around your neck.

Linda Blair -06 Sep 2012 | 16:05

law sucks sometimes

I am thinking of self funding but now very scared. My family is very working class, if i have to live i have to work sometime 50 hrs a week at my job to pay rent and bills and am expected to find work experience which is almost impossible. Just to get to university i had to learn English at the age of 17 (now 22) and now not many people believe that I couldn't speak English because i don't even have a accent. Had to sit on computer and learn pronunciation through youtube, grammar through textbooks on my own because at my school they didn't bother much, which made me almost quit! Got really bad A levels was predicted U's but now I have finished my degree with a 2:1 which for me is an amazing accomplishment. I have no legal experience because i had to work to attend uni and pay my way through university. Not tuition fees, but rent etc. I have wanted to be a solicitor since i was 13 and now have resorted to legal blogging (for my legal fix) and taking my LPC course on part time such that I can work and pay the tuition fees. I have looked high and low for legal work which pays for me to live on and they all say the same things in interview "you so determined and inspiring" but no call back. Now being realistic i might just end up being very disappointed but cant give up, not now not ever. I hope one day I will inspire someone never to give up.

similar situation -08 Sep 2012 | 05:37

Ignore Negative Comments

Please ignore all comments by Constructive, Recruiter and their likes.

BBB A Levels and 2:1 from a good University is very good... well done. My advice is: do your LPC part time whilst working full time in a legal environment either as a paralegal in Practice, in-house etc. if you really really want to qualify as a lawyer, something will turn up...it happens quickly for some.. a bit longer for some.

Once you are in work, your attitude, willingness to work hard, learn as well as contribute will open doors for you.

Being a lawyer does not start and end with getting AAAs, attending a top 10 University and getting training contract with a top 10 City/US firms. ( it may make your life easier if you do but who says life was meant to be easy)

I did BTEC HNC, got a 2:2 from a new University and I speak English as a second language - originally from a sub sahara African Country. I worked as a paralegal for years in City firms through agencies, did the NY Bar and the QLTT now QLTS. I now work as Commercial Lawyer in a very big company. Yes I am paying off my huge debts but I have personal and professional satisfaction that I achieved my ambition.

If it worked for me considering my background and perceived disadvantages, it will certainly work for you. As they say..you can get it if you really want..but you got to try, try and try..you will succeed at last...

PJ -14 Sep 2012 | 09:07

I achieved the same UCAS points as you (24) with ABC at A level and those got me into a top 10 redbrick where I achieved a "good" 2.1 (68% average). Maybe those grades were better when I did my A levels back in 1998, or worse? In any event, I never got a TC - ever - and I think it was because of my A levels and where I got them i.e not a 6th form. They were also in humanities and not hard sciences which could have at least justified the grades. I remember being pretty angry about the grades because I got AAB in my mocks just a few months before.

To cut a long story short I ended up going to the US to do an LLM at a top 10 school, got good grades, passed the New York bar, and ended up working as a litigator at a boutique/niche firm who sponsored my green card. Now on my third small firm. I'm making about the same as a midlevel 5PQE associate at the magic circle.

It's fine, but I could never come back and practise in London, even though I passed the transfer test last year and am on the roll.

jack -24 Sep 2012 | 05:54

Just apply

I was offered a TC with a magic circle as a mature applicant whilst only marginally contemplating law as a career. The only reason... I knew the director of HR. The point is that you pass the LPC and nothing else. Grades are only an initial filter which can be circumvented and the majority of skills you will require at a reasonably sized firm are real time business ones. You have to be able to make money!

The LPC is not a waste of time: I can count a number of people who decided to follow a business route instead - where it has helped.

Grades - well - I can count, amongst the people I know, a partner who has EE at A-level and a low 2.1. I don't think his legal grades were stunning but he's a great lawyer and really good at business. Actually, I can also think of a barrister with a similar background.

Observer -16 Oct 2012 | 08:41

You need to want it

Having read all the comments, they show that everyones experience is very much different. I got a BCC in a-levels, 2:2 in law from a low university and it has taken me 6 years since doing the LPC to get where i am now, thats waiting for admission to the roll. It is difficult, the rejections were hard to take, but I finally was given a chance with a high street practice because I had experience albeit in-house experience. You have to want it to be honest and unless you can show determination when you are about to break. It has been really tough, but tougher still is the NQ market, about 70% of candidates on the PSC did not have positions to go to. Firms are washing their hands of them and its tough out there!!! I have been fortunate that I have managed to keep my NQ position and also offered a role elsewhere but that isn't always the case. My new employer even said in interview I was in a very fortunate position, so it is tougher, much tougher than years gone by. BUT if you want it, then go for it.

Waiting to be Admitted -30 Oct 2012 | 16:58

Age old question

Wow, lots of comments to choose from, all with varying degrees of "what happened to me". Apart from grades and experience, it's worth considering what the market in general is like for LPC-ers.

Firstly, the market is hugely oversubscribed. When applying for TCs, it's worth noting that you'll also be competing with guys who didn't get one last year, the year before that or longer! The pool of people who've completed the LPC is ever-growing b/c there simply aren't enough TCs to go around each year. If anything, the number of annual TCs is reducing due to the smaller to mid-level firms cutting costs (why pay LPC fees when you might have to let that person go after 2 years?). However, law schools continue to enrol pupils b/c that's how they make their money. More pupils = more money. You'll also find that many law schools aren't even picky about who they enrol. Expect to meet lots of people with 2:1s in history or languages from Oxbridge who did the GDL b/c they want to work in the city. One guy in my class was from China and his english was too poor to enable him to do the required reading, let alone contribute to the work exercises! I don't think he passed a single exam and the tutors pretty much gave up on him.
Law schools are a business at the end of the day and the LPC is what they're selling. It's a huge financial commitment to self-fund your LPC and I'd only choose that option if you know you'll make a lasting career out of being a solicitor. Working as a paralegal will help as it's vastly different from shadowing a solicitor for a week or so. Good luck.

Personal Experience -31 Oct 2012 | 15:26

IS THERE "FIRE IN YOUR BELLY"?

I am “EXTREMELY OVERHELMED” with commentator’s response to your article first, of all. Overall, you have gained excellent results of achievement from your A-Levels including from Legum Baccalaureus. Meanwhile, you’ll receive critical responses from every viewers from dust to ground hence, remaining Law students’ in the World due to competitiveness involved having Training Contract or either Pupillage.

Thus, the effect of, EUROZONE crisis and un-predicted economy have shown an “UMBRELLA” version of Law Firms’, either outsourcing their Offices and getting rid of their staff or a Merge with International Law Firms’ for a strong Market Share in the Legal Sector….

Hence, not to mention the domestic legal work in Law Firms let alone have slumped down enourmously creating job fear Legal Market.

My overall, advise will be commence on Paralegal work to develop your legal acumen in drafting or negotiating matters, then apply Law Firms for Training Contract.

Furthermore a good 2:1 from top 20 UK Institution will not set you apart from your competitors, but language skills or work experience on International Law Firms or Banks etc, will make youuu.

Meanwhile you could also, try the ILEX route to qualify as Legal Executive...

However, even if, you end up paying your Legal Practice Course from your expenses,still be Investment for, future propositions in Law Firms for Training Contract.

So, all talk no trousers will not be productivity, overall suggestion….

Huseyin Gok -16 Nov 2012 | 15:11

I am in a similar situation

I am a recent law grad from an average uni... with a 2.2... and AAE at A Level.. I've got over 5 yrs paralegal experience along with several other gd experiences... including working on the olympics...yet still no tc...ive applied all over the place and have had nothing but rejections...i decided not to undertake a self fund the lpc this year...since i was not getting anywhere ...ive even tried applying with institutions like financial ombudsman services for other roles...yet still no luck...seeing my colleagues from uni, those who did the lpc or gdl and lpc, many of whome have now ended up doing totally diff things..i.e. in insurance...has made me reconsider doing the lpc altogether...although i have not made my mind up yet for sure...arter seeing ppl with better grades then me not getting far and reconsidering has made me think maybe investing such a large sum of money in a lpc is not wise unless i have a tc for sure...i am finding it difficult to get new job opportunities atm...and id rather not be in any further debt unless its gauranteed going to lead to something after....

KG -02 Dec 2012 | 04:04

Keep looking for a TC before you commit financially

I would not advise self-funding unless you would be happy to go out and give the same amount of money away. I completed the GDL and LPC in 2006-2008. Several people on those courses with me STILL have not secured TCs.

However, I don't think it is all as doom and gloom as others make out. I secured my TC with a well-known regional firm despite having no legal experience whatsoever and after a 5 year career break (after children, before which I had done something completely unrelated to law for only 18 months).

I did have a "good" 2:1 and AAB, but in my circumstances I expected the career break and lack of experience to be the dealbreakers. They weren't. I did focus my TC search on regional rather than London firms though to try and be realistic about what I could get.

After qualification I left and now work for a top 20 firm. One of the paralegals in my team now was on my LPC course with me. I have no idea why she hasn't got a TC yet as she is bright and a hard worker, but my and her relative experiences show that you don't necessarily need lots of relevant work experience to get a TC, and equally, even if you do have lots, you may still not get a TC.

TC with no legal experience -03 Dec 2012 | 10:22

Being straight: yes

This is a bad idea.

If you have the LPC, the only thing you can really do is keep applying for training contracts.

If you do not have the LPC, you have a choice. My advice is to not take on the burden. Your grades should be the least of your concerns. The level of competition is now beyond cutthroat, and will only continue growing There are people at my firm who are 30 who have still not managed to find a training contract. They will eventually get one, but only because they're already in a firm, and have finished the LPC, and are going to slave away at it for far less money than they're educationally qualified to earn. You will find many people who say "keep at it; you'll get there eventually" or more disparagingly "stop whining and work hard". There's a point at which you have to assess whether or not what you're doing is naive. This is something that not just law grads are bad at doing, but human beings in general.

I finished the GDL, and am now looking at the ILEX route. I would also only consider doing ILEX if you're at a firm (which I'm sure you will be in the near future if not now), although I'm not even sure if you can do it if you're not.

Here is something to consider: now that firms are becoming ABSs (and the legal sector is going that way; any firms who disagree will see themselves heading downhill over the next decade), you may be able to become a partner without any legal qualifications. And this isn't even to mention the vast array of legal opportunities that will be heading our way over the next 5-10 years.

The final two pieces of advice I can offer:
(1) if there is any doubt in your mind about choosing to not do the LPC, speak with Rosemary Verlander-Smith from ITC.
(2) read Richard Susskind's Tomorrow's Lawyers.

Ezra -07 Feb 2013 | 15:59