Career Clinic: Struggling with a colleague's point-scoring

move jurisdiction

I'm afraid you'll have to get used to it. It is a London thing - having practised in another country for a number of years I was incredibly surprised when I moved here five years ago at the number of point-scoring tools in the profession who actually know very little about the law and I'm afraid my impression hasn't changed. This is controversial, but I suggest that it is the consequence of the parlous English legal education system; the only way to cover up for incomplete legal knowledge is to take cheap points (rather than getting to the right answer). Move to just about any other common law jurisdiction and you'll find, on the whole, that the lawyers are better educated, more reasonable, and more capable of playing the ball rather than the man/woman.

jay -02 Dec 2010 | 16:35

sadly familiar

Yes, unfortunately, many lawyers are very anal and as the other poster says, make up for their lack of knowledge by scoring points against those who are meant to be colleagues. These type of people infest the corridors of private practice, but they even surface in the relatively co-operative environment of in-house legal departments. I don't know why this should be. Perhaps the law just attracts more people with undesirable personality traits. It would be good if someone posted a good way of treating such people, because, like you, I find it very difficult to deal with people who do not have reaching a solution foremost in their minds.

In-house lawyer -02 Dec 2010 | 18:51

Stand up to her, but don't sink to her level

Unfortunately there are a lot of people like this in law firms. It is frustrating, especially if, like many people, you prefer to avoid confrontation. However, the only way to deal with these people is to stand up to them, if you can't avoid them, although don't sink to her level and always be measured and reasonable. Try and strengthen your relationship with other colleagues in the team, so that she does not isolate you. You may find that they share your misgivings abuot your colleague.

Eddie -03 Dec 2010 | 10:05

Stand up for yourself!

People like this just need enough rope to hang themselves which they will do, eventually. In the meantime cultivate good and strong working relationships with everyone else in the team so that you have some credibility in the workplace and some potential allies if you need them. You may find that your colleagues and the partners find this person utterly tiresome as well and will happily support you if needed.

Then pick a moment where the behaviour is unquestionably out of order and, in front of everyone else, state that you want to speak to the person in private about it, there and then, as if to save everyone the embarrassment of spat in public. Go off somewhere in a slightly theatrical manner then confront the person about it. This will be a rare experience for her and she will probably not handle it well. At this point you need to play your cards well so as to avoid an inconclusive and ineffectual bust-up that leaves you coming off worse especially if she is more senior than you are.

Make it clear that while she might think this is normal behaviour you are not going to put up with it and if she has any problem with you or your work you expect to discuss it in private and if you think her views have no merit you will say so. Her behaviour is rude, unpleasant and a form of bullying and if she tries it again she will find herself on the wrong end of an unseemly public incident and an employee grievance. In practice doing anything that involves HR will be pointless but if you make the point with some genuine menace then you should get across the strength of your views. Give her the impression that you have dealt with a lot worse in the past and want to just make it clear what you think before anything gets out of hand, etc.

Ultimately if you work somewhere that tolerates and perhaps even encourages this kind of thing (plenty places do) you may eventually need to move on but it’s worth having a go at sorting it out first.

Young Fogey -03 Dec 2010 | 10:32

Unfortunately, inadequate personal behaviour is not uncommon in law firms. If this person is not a partner, it should be easier to deal with. As posters above have said, create allies for yourself and avoid being isolated. It is highly likely people will know what she is like. Try to stick to your own standards of behaviour. And remember - the problem is her, not you.

Hang in there.

Annon -03 Dec 2010 | 11:29

Total sympathy

I have total sympathy for you. I worked with a very similar female colleague, who made my life a misery. At first I thought it was just me, but then I realised she had been like this at other places before, including in education - she actually said as much, although from her point of view she had been right to antagonise people.
The problem is she is blind to the harm she is causing. What I came to learn was that she was very, very insecure and to some extent was trying to protect herself from losing her job - this meant she felt she had to dip everyone else in sh*t, or at least find someone to blame to deal with her anxiety.
Ironically we were both sacked from our firm during the financial crisis in 09 at the same time, after it became clear we were for the chop she actually became a quite nice person - as there was no longer a need to worry about losing her job, nor need to cr*p on others to make herself look good.
The thing is, it's her character, and I'm sure she is now making someone else's life hell at the new firm she ended up at. (Hey, maybe that's her.)
OK, long post, I'll cut to the chase. In hindsight I now understand the only way to deal with partially psychotic and aggressive types like her is to confront them and tell them very clearly 'TO BACK OFF!!!'. I have since taken that approach to other bully-type people and it works. Sadly, they then seek out another person to push around/use as a punch bag for their problems. But, at least it is no longer you who is their target. Hope that helps and good luck in the fight back.

300 -03 Dec 2010 | 14:30

Dinnae Worry

I wouldn't worry too much. I expect that management won't look too kindly on someone who openly and loudly criticises others in public.

There are some unpleasant people in law firms, but the moderate, reasonable majority tend to form the correct view of them pretty quickly, at least in my experience.

Probably best to just shrug it off - responding with a look expressing pity or slightly patronising sympathy for the criticiser would be my chosen technique, but then I'm a younger brother and I've had years of practice to perfect that particular 'look'. Might not work for everyone.

Barry -03 Dec 2010 | 14:38

Bullying!

This is bullying. The way to stand up to bullies is to make sure they understand that you are made of stronger mettle. There is a book called 'surviving bullying at work' has is hugely useful with tips etc to deal with this. Only raise this with management if you are prepared to leave. This is because they may not side with you in fear of a claim. HR is spineless.

My advice is to look for work with another/other partners who do not use this woman as a senior associate. When you work with her, document everything she says- send emails to yourself etc. This is to cover yourself if something goes wrong on the deal- you can show you acted as per instructions. Keep a bullying diary - again email yourself to show evidence of dates etc. When you report the incident in your diary be factual- X said xyz infront of xyz . Then have a separate para stating this made you feel undermined etc etc. The book will help you construct the diary.
Good luck
RR.

Agony aunt -04 Dec 2010 | 10:50

Welcome to the law

Get used it. Her behaviour is par for the course for most lawyers. She may not even be targeting you deliberately - this is just how she interacts with people.

Law is full to the brim with the worst excuses for human beings I have ever come across - only banking has a larger number of terrible people. And law is incredibly forgiving as a career of unprofessional and/or malevolent behaviour. As long as this person does what the partners want (and the partners don't care how she interacts with colleagues) she can do whatever she likes.

You can either just to let is slide or fight back in some way. Do whichever in the particular circumstances helps your career the most. If you really can't stomach having to do either then it's time to think about another career.

Magic Circle Associate -06 Dec 2010 | 15:21

it's a problem in the law

I think this is a general problem in the law. It is just as bad in-house, so a change of job may not help - the b**ches are just as bad here.

inhouser -06 Dec 2010 | 16:21

A different point of view

I have actually been the person who seems to be the bad guy in this scenario. I openly and loudly disagreed with whatever this senior said in our legal meetings - the reason was simply that he never talks any sense. He throws out ideas which either are irrelevant to the issue or make no good. Everything we say to him he ignores, and then moves right back to his own ideas that nobody likes. You put forward ideas which are much better, but somehow he would always be the one that could understand it. He would make remarks without thinking of legal and regulatory consequences. There are plenty of other examples, but basically I started to have to interrupt when I knew he was going to talk nonsense and not to others. Maybe instead of thinking how to deal with the girl, the guy should think out how to make his comments more constructive and well prepared so that the girl would have nothing to challenge you on?

Achanster -06 Dec 2010 | 17:11

Count yourself lucky...

...it could be worse: She could be one of those superb players who appear honest and friendly to your face yet bad mouth you behind your back!

You can tell a lot about someone's psychotic tendencies by looking at the eyes. If she smiles at you when greeting you or when asking you for something but her eyes are dead then she's a hypocrite.

I wouldn't waste time talking to her without a witness.

Trainer -06 Dec 2010 | 20:12

I thought I was the only one..

I completely agree that this is common enough in practice. I work with a particularly loud points scoring senior associate who, by her loudness and overbearing quality, has frightened my boss into submission such that she takes his side. It is often an emotional position and I have, for the last few years, took Eddie's view that you need to stand up to a shouter. However, it doesn't seem to work and just makes things spiral to a point where I worry about my position. However, in the current jobs market, I am stuck here with her barring any chance I have of promotion and so I just have to accept the situation. You are not alone.....

De/Supressed -07 Dec 2010 | 10:25

BP

The comments above capture very well the behaviour of half the senior associates at SJ Berwin. I worked there for only 18 months but never in my (11 year) legal career have I seen so much grandstanding as compensation for not knowing the law or addressing the issues at hand. I completely agree with the comments of the first poster above who diagnoses this phenomenon as the result of the weak British legal education system and the low barriers to entry into the legal profession in this country.

Anonymous -07 Dec 2010 | 14:47

There are only two types of lawyer...

...the ones that stab you in the back and the ones that stab you in the front. Ever wondered why so many lawyers go into politics?

London Lawyer -07 Dec 2010 | 17:16

Trainer

"If she smiles at you when greeting you or when asking you for something but her eyes are dead..."

Sounds like a partner...

Magic Circle Associate -08 Dec 2010 | 13:53

take a hint

Maybe your colleague's comments are justified and you're not very good? Why not ask her to help you or thank her for the feedback... rather than unsubtly posting the whole thing on the internet!

c -08 Dec 2010 | 14:03

Sounds like...

"If she smiles at you when greeting you or when asking you for something but her eyes are dead..."

Sounds just like my ex-girlfriend.

Curious George -09 Dec 2010 | 09:55

Just ignore her..

Whatever you do, just completely ignore her and be totally cool when dealing with her. Even if that means not saying hello in the morning. Believe me, it will work. Being nice will only be seen as a sign of weakness.

The law is full of idiots like this. I had a similar problem where I trained and after I left, it transpired everyone else absolutely hated the person concerned. That didn't stop her becoming partner though, showing how absolutely blind firms can be to this kind of thing. If push comes to shove, just take her to one side and tell her her behaviour is unacceptable.

Anon -09 Dec 2010 | 14:02

See It Through Her Eyes

Beliefs drive behaviour and fear often fuels aggression. Under their comments and challenging attitude is insecurity. What is it about you or your position that they feel threatened by? How can you make them realise you are not a threat? This may feel like a problem, but it is an opportunity.

Talentliberator -11 Dec 2010 | 07:09

don't hate the player, hate the game

Come on, those who make a show or claim to be innocent are the least innocent of all, flaunting their piety etc...

She might be points scoring but it is the least effective way to get ahead; they will realise that fact soon.

In future, do not allow her to points score. "How might you do it better?" "Brilliant, that combined with his idea would, taken together, be a perfect solution..."

Enjoy life, don't let people get to you. Be patient and be the perfect courtier.

veteran points scorer -11 Dec 2010 | 15:48