Career Clinic: I lied about my degree to get a TC!

I got into a top City firm this year; I said I got five As at A-Level and only got one. Most law firms are idiots who don't even check grades...

Anonymous -10 Mar 2008 | 10:33

If that's true, I think you've just made a pretty shrewd career move in disclosing that. Regular Big Mac meal with coke, please.

Anon -10 Mar 2008 | 11:05

Your lie will probably be caught out through your academic reference...

Anonymous -10 Mar 2008 | 11:17

You are in a precarious position - if your final year results lead to your law firm querying your degree results (and they do ask to see copies of degree certificates and sometimes check), they will withdraw your training contract. Regardless of whether you tell your law firm, you should consider whether you have the necessary professionlism, ethics and integrity to be a lawyer. If you do proceed with this training contract, you are obtaining property by deception (which, despite your poor academic grades you should realise is a criminal offence) and your law firm would be entitled to demand repayment of LPC fees and any other salary or grants paid to you. Do you really want to be in that position? It is a shame to see that people like you (and the trainee at Slaughter and May who lied on his/her application form) are entering the profession (particularly when there is so much competition to get training contracts). By your own admission you are dishonest and a liar, what client would want you to act for them? I certainly would not.

In-house Lawyer -10 Mar 2008 | 11:20

Whilst dishonesty and fraudulence might seem to be pre-requisites for a career in the law, they are not. Your deserve all that you get.

Anonymous -10 Mar 2008 | 12:03

I wore a false beard to my TC interview and am fairly sure that's the only reason I got the job - am now desperately trying to grow a real one so I don't get found out!

Anonymous -10 Mar 2008 | 12:20

I certainly wouldn't say anything until you receive your final result. If (which looks likely) you get a 2:1 I very much doubt that the firm would be interested in the individual grades you obtained for different modules. In the event that you get a 2:2, you'll have to let the firm know that you haven't achieved your desired grade and then the decision is out of your hands. In reality, loads of firms use the 2:1/2:2 as a filter mechanism. If they really like you, they will offer you a job regardless.

Solicitor, In-House -10 Mar 2008 | 12:44

You are, quite frankly, an idiot.

Anonymous -10 Mar 2008 | 12:56

In a word, yes. A solicitor who cannot be trusted is not worth having.

Senior Solicitor, City Firm -10 Mar 2008 | 13:44

Even if you manage to get away with it initially, this is the kind of thing that can come out of the woodwork years down the line and ruin your career. You'll have to deal with guilt, and the stress of always wondering if you're going to be 'found out'. If I were you, I'd turn down the training contract, concentrate on getting your 2:1 then take a gap year and apply again - and this time, be honest on your application.

Anonymous -10 Mar 2008 | 13:56

just goes to show you how useless HR really is when they neglect to do basic background checks.

Anonymous -10 Mar 2008 | 14:08

This is the sort of stuff that can land you in some serious trouble. At the end of the day its fraud and that pretty much will ensure you get struck off before you even get onto the rolls. Admit to your error, tell them that you made a mistake and back it up with a letter from your uni saying you're predicted a 2:1. They will ask for all degree, A-Level etc certificates once you've finished your exams anyway so you might come a cropper then. Even if they turn you down now its much better than them saying at a later date that you can't have your TC. At least if you know that now you'll have time to find another. A little anecdotal evidence for you - I was in a firm where one of the trainees changed their grade on an appraisal (only by 1 mark), was caught and then kicked out. Do not, under any circumstances, lie to your firm. They will find you out eventually......

Anonymous -10 Mar 2008 | 14:45

Will you get shafted? Maybe! But then some HR are interested more in looks and candidates sucking up rather than grades, right? So you may get away with it

Anonymous -10 Mar 2008 | 15:04

You have also committed an offence under the Fraud Act 2006

Anonymous -10 Mar 2008 | 16:12

Depends if you are found out. You might be lucky and nobody will ever know. but you might be found out and your legal career could be finished, and that might happen years down the line when you have forgotten all about your little deception. That's the consequence you have brought on your self and i think you know it. that's punishment enough for anyone.

May -10 Mar 2008 | 16:17

It may have felt like an easy slip of the pen at the time, but it is just plain stupid to lie in an application to join a profession which is based on basic ethical obligations of honesty and of respecting the law. "Everyone else does it" is not a good reason to do something.

Anonymous -10 Mar 2008 | 16:24

By the way, to be a good lawyer you need to think through the consequences of what you do/advise. A reputation for lying to your employer and essentially taking them for a ride/fools will not get you far. But obviously you are asking for practical advice and not just a sermon. Withdraw your application and say that you want to take some time out e.g. gap year and consider your options. Get some decent grades that you don't lie about. Take gap year. Reappply (but obviously not to the firm you have secured your training contract with). And use your brain.

Anonymous -10 Mar 2008 | 16:28

I have to laugh at some of the overblown comments on this site... criminal, struck off, theft (deception offences). The issue relates to none of the above but simply an employment/contract law question. Can your employment and or training contract be terminated and if so how and what are the risks to both you and the firm? Training contracts can only be cancelled via referal with our regulator, which presents its own hurdle. It is reasonable for the employer to dismiss based on your predicted grades only. I think its hard for an employer to argue that it would not have employed you based on your predicted grades when, as here, those grades are merely indicatory and are subject to confirmation of final grades. Whether an employer can dismiss you for your final grades is a different matter. If the employer can justify a requirement for a 2:1 and this requirement is contained in the training contract terms, then I suspect a failure to achive that will leave an employer at low risk for terminating your contract and dismissing you. My advice is work like crazy and get a 2:1. Alternatively, read through your training contract terms and refresh your employment law as you may need to use it sooner than you think...

Stanley -10 Mar 2008 | 16:45

I don't think that you are necesarily cut out for a career in the law if you have chosen to lie on your application forms, but you'll probably get away with it as I don't think that most firms ask for transcripts, so provided that you get a 2.1 it will probably go unnoticed.

Anonymous -10 Mar 2008 | 16:52

Why is everyone making a fuss about this. At the end of the day if you get a 2:1 you will have a T/C and thats what this is all about. As others have said 2:/2:2 is a filter and I would not really be interested in individual modules especially as most will not be relevant to the legal work you end up doing. I do not see this as being any different as saying on your cv you did more on a particular project than you actually did

In House Solicitor -10 Mar 2008 | 17:22

You may well be asked for your degree certificate - I certainly have been by 3 law firms but as this will only reflect your overall grade, you should have nothing to worry about - provided you get a 2:1 of course. A lot of people have been creative and/or otherwise beefed up their skills and interests but putting down false numbers which can be verified is altogether more risky, as you now realise. You'll probably get away with it though and then future employers will only care about your 2:1 anyway.

Anonymous -10 Mar 2008 | 17:44

I agree that the grades don't really matter but the fact that you have lied about your grades is, in my opinion, extremely serious. My firm discovered recently that a trainee applicant had told a very small lie on their application form. Even though they were an otherwise excellent candidate, they were rejected on the basis that they had lied and this firm would like to preserve its excellent reputation by not recruiting such individuals whose integrity and suitability for the profession is highly questionable. I think that was a fair result.

Assistant solicitor -10 Mar 2008 | 17:54

If you are caught you will almost certainly be fired and are liable to face criminal charges. Lying on a CV or application form for a job is considered obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception which is a criminal offence. Ultimately, if you do get a 2:1 then you will feel less guilty but the fact is that you lied in order to get your job and could possibly have cheated someone else who did actually get a 2:1 in their first year from getting that training contract.

Anonymous -10 Mar 2008 | 18:02

I've had a rubbish day today but it has cheered me up no end to find that there are still people out there daft enough to do this sort of thing. Leaving aside the will you/won't you get caught debate, the real question you should be asking is what you should do now. If I were you, I'd cut my losses and try to get out of the situation. To do that you need to withdraw from the offer, saying that you have decided to take some time out after your degree to travel/write a book/conquer Europe. Assuming that the application form does not require historic information, you can then re-apply in due course with your actual results and a clear(ish) conscience. Although of course they may not want you then.

Ex-MC Lawyer -10 Mar 2008 | 18:35

Stanley doesn't seem to know much criminal law. I'd suggest the poster also remember to pay for public transport when they start work.

Anonymous -10 Mar 2008 | 20:35

to comment on those suggesting I don't know criminal law...Even if you could argue that a deception offence occurs. Who on earth is going to prosecute it? The Crown is not going to, neither is the law firm likely to want to try a private prosecution.A friend of mine is a CPS prosecutor and she laughed at the idea the CPS would choose to prosecute. In her words, as I said yesterday it is a matter for the firm. The CPS would never involve itsself in such matters. She did clarify that the CPS do prosecute in cases where someone fraudulently obtains a responsible position without the proper qualifications i.e someone fakes qualifications to act as a doctor, lawyer, banker or whatever i.e the 'catch me if you can' approach...These posts really do emphasise the difference between academic law and reality.

Stanley -11 Mar 2008 | 10:20

I have a sense of deja vu; hasn't this column been here before, some time ago? Answers this time seem in general to be pretty much the same. I have to agree totally with "in-house lawyer" above; it may seem overblown but if you are found out, those are the sorts of accusations that could be thrown at you. You shouldn't have done it, never do anything like it again, keep quiet and learn a lesson! I was a recruiting partner for 16 years in a London firm, so I have a view on such things.

General counsel -11 Mar 2008 | 10:50

Years down the line... I am not sure what the longevity of lawyers is, but I think it ranges between 5 and 10 years. You should not have lied, but now that you have you should keep quiet (a bit like adultery, really). Will you be found out? Maybe, maybe not, and maybe you'll be found out when you are thinking about leaving the law anyway (it is well paid and all, but most work - even so called high stakes work - is dull). Is it criminal? Maybe, I would not know, but I would like to see the law firm that wants to make public the fact that they do not perform elementary checks on their personnel. Just don't do it again because you are playing with fire and you may very well be caught in circumstances that could be, at the very least, embarassing.

Anonymous -11 Mar 2008 | 11:32

The overall level of advice seems to be a good example of why the general public hate solicitors. Never mind quoting what someone has done wrong, what laws they have broken, etc. Get back to what you're supposed to do and administer advice! There are a couple of good posts though that go straight to the heart of the matter; 'withdraw your application'. That's more like it! And your client will be pleased too.

Barrister-turned-Businessman -11 Mar 2008 | 15:23

BTW Wonderful post from General Counsel. Can we have more 'non-solicitors' posting?

Barrister-turned-Barrister -11 Mar 2008 | 15:27

I'm amazed at the number of posters who seem to think its ok for someone who wants to be a solicitor to tell lies to a prospective employer. If you can lie to get a training contract you can lie to a client, the court etc. Does the integrity of the profession count for nothing nowadays?

Anonymous -11 Mar 2008 | 16:09

This is a disgraceful way to behave before you have even gotten in to this profession. Do not darken our door with your lies - you will undoubtedly be found out! Find an alternativee career - i think politics may be your calling judging by your thinly veiled attempt to "spin" your deception.

Northern NQ -11 Mar 2008 | 16:10

withdraw the application, take a gap year then reapply again - somehow i can't see that that is good advice. the fact is that this person lied. are you cleansed if you reapplied to the same firm say and they offered a TC, and let's assume this person came out with a 2.1 overall. chances are he won't be found out. it makes me laugh seeing all these amateur lawyers quoting the Fraud Act etc. Quite apart from the law firm not wishing to attract attention to itself (so they won't press for prosecution), I'm not sure there's any point from a CPS point of view when nobody will have suffered any loss or injury. one would hope for slightly more measured, balanced advice here, and what this chap needs is practical advice. he knows his situation and he wants to make the best of it.

Anonymous -11 Mar 2008 | 16:11

It's not a question of whether the firm would report it to the police or whether the CPS would prosecute. The fact is you have broken the law and you're not much of a lawyer if you don't know that you have! If the firm does find out about your deception, it will terminate your contract immediately and you won't get a reference. My advice is to choose another career.

Anonymous -11 Mar 2008 | 16:45

You probably won't get caught. But you clearly need to question your integrity.

Anon -11 Mar 2008 | 16:50

Again, another amateur lawyer who says the poster broke the law. Be careful with flippant advice. It takes a lot to fall foul of the Fraud Act. That is not to belittle what the poster has done but please, let's get this into perspective here. He (I assume it is not she) is going to pay a very high price anyway if one day he is found out, not because a crime was committed (which is unlikely anyway) but because lying to a law firm would normally be sufficient grounds to terminate the contract, a serious disciplinary matter and one that would do away with the usual verbal-written-fial written warning route, i.e. summary dismissal even if years down the line. If there is a criminal lawyer out there, please speak up!

Anonymous -11 Mar 2008 | 17:40

Honesty is not always the best policy, even though you should of course always be honest. Everyone knows law firms generally only look at 2:1s and above so you can't blame someone for massaging the figures to make it look like they are going to get a 2:1 rather than a 2:2. The fact that they now have a TC shows that the law firms' insistence on a 2:1 is daft - as I said on another career clinic, being a good academic lawyer does not mean you will be a good practising one.You've done wrong. But you are unlikely to get found out. And on the scale of doing wrong, it's low - I don't condone what you have done but can understand why you did it. Move on - and hope you don't get caught. Make sure you do get a 2:1 - and that you do well on the LPC. Law firms don't generally ask for degree breakdowns - they may want to see your final certificate. I think they can get your LPC breakdown though. There seem to be a lot of 'holier than thou' lawyers on here. I wonder whether any of them can put hand on heart and say they have never ever broken the law? E.g. nicking sweets as a kid, or speeding? Look to yourself before condemning others.

Helen -12 Mar 2008 | 10:21

Being involved in recruitment and having been educated in the good old days when the breakdown of the grades for my degree were a mixture of incomprehensible Greek symbols, I am constantly suprised by the level of detail firms now require for aspiring trainees and summer students. Large firms will require to see all exam grades and will typically expect to see evidence of these on day one of the training contract. I think the best advice is probably to pull out of the TC applications for this year and reapply next, having lined up a very good reason why you're taking a year out.

anon -12 Mar 2008 | 13:29

Fraud Act 2006 s.2(1) - a person commits a breach of this section if he dishonestly makes a false representation and intends by making the representation to make a gain for himself.s. 2(2)- a representation is false if it is untrue or misleading and the person making it knows it is untrue or misleading.He may never get prosecuted for it but does anyone now think he has not committed an offence?

criminal lawyer -12 Mar 2008 | 20:25

My main concern with that is: what about those that genuinely have done really well, are honest in their applications? It seems like honesty gets you nowhere! I was once told by a lawyer, "It's not grades that get you places, it's the blagging"!

LPC Grad still in search for TC! -13 Mar 2008 | 10:02

Don't panic!! Wait and see what your final grades are. If you get a 2.1 overall, that's ALL that matters. And grades, frankly, mean very little in the grand scheme of things. There are plenty of City lawyers dragging their knuckles at magic circle firms! And don't listen to the posts telling you that it was unethical etc. That's life. You presupposed a grade for yourself that you must now live up to. The worst thing that can happen is that you get a 2.2 and you have to tell your firm that you didn't hit your marks. They'll either take you or leave you (probably take you). No big deal! You'll get another training contract. People who don't get trainng contracts are generally terrible interviewees. I interview candidates at my firm and the only people I don't suggest giving an offer to are those that don't interview well (or seem stupid)... Good luck - it won't haunt you, I promise. Just get those grades!!!

Noone's business -13 Mar 2008 | 16:44

See page 31 of this week's Gazette - providing misleading information to a prospective employer is unbefitting conduct which could lead to being struck off. My advice would be to withdraw your application now, and any others to other firms which include the same information, and don't apply again to any of them.

Another high street lawyer -13 Mar 2008 | 16:49

I am astounded at the poster who stated he/she recruits, yet completely finds cheating your way through the recritment process perfectly acceptable. Confirms a few stereotypes about lawyers...

still searching -13 Mar 2008 | 17:20

There was someone who once did this, got a job at a MC firm no less, got found out when up for partnership, got bounced...don't do it, withdraw, apply elsewhere. Don't listen to Stanley and others who carp on about CPS likelihood of enforcement / amateur lawyers - the point is not just the criminal record you probably won't get, it's the law breaking, particularly the dishonest law breaking, that is the issue here.

Anonymous -13 Mar 2008 | 17:46

I wouldn't admit it I have to say, but I would withdraw and re-apply on a clean slate as soon as possible. As many posters have correctly informed, this is not a caveat emptor scenario unfortuntately. Its fraudulent misrep.+ whatever way you look at it. But this would not be my main worry right now. Last time I checked the Law Society also had rules. A girl I was at law school with did some plagarism in an essay - the Law Society knew about it before she did. And they will never let her be a lawyer. There is no room for discussion on that point. Nor will they let you if you are caught (on the assumption you don't think its wise to change your name and persona that is).Now I have no idea how slim the chances of this happening are, but my pressing worry in your position, other than that I was about to embark on the rest of my life on the back of an albeit small lie, would be that on your HR's routine checks with your lpc provider, who in turn had checked up on your university records, your blip comes to light. Next day you owe your 20 grand lpc fees back...payment of which made more painful because the law society won't let you ever practice...and you'll have to become a headhunter or an accountant. The risk for me would be too big to take.

Linklaters -14 Mar 2008 | 01:27

Have you considered a career as an estate agent or second-hand car dealer?

Anonymous -14 Mar 2008 | 18:03

Whether or not this is a criminal offence is beside the point; our profession is supposed to be based on honesty and integrity and your behaviour does not demonstrate those at all. I have only once had to sack someone and I did it because the solicitor in question lied about having done something which had not been done. In fact, it didn't matter that the work hadn't been done, it was completely salvageable - what mattered was the dishonesty. That solicitor has no reference from my firm and had to move to another town to get another job. If your lie comes to light, you will be likely to be dismissed summarily and you will find it hard to get another job. You're actually unlikely to be struck off though unless you pocket clients' money - but you will find it difficult to get another job without telling yet more lies. Withdraw your application and think long and hard about whether you know the difference between right and wrong.

Anonymous -17 Mar 2008 | 11:48

what you've done is no better than theft, be is stolen cars, burglary or mugging. you have taken what could have been someone elses - i.e. stolen a place from a more legitimate applicant. if i were to find out, i would protest to the highest level in the firm that an example be made. fraud is not, and should not be acceptable anywhere, nevermind in a law firm, where abuse of a position of trust would mean a crime is seen as far worse.

Anonymous -18 Mar 2008 | 13:09

'Lying on a CV is as bad as mugging someone'. Hmmmmm

Anonymous -18 Mar 2008 | 13:33

Life's too short to spend your career looking nervously over your shoulder, sweating over whether you'll get struck off/ sacked/ bounced for partnership (which is quite enough to have on mind, even if getting prosecuted is a little unlikely). Legal practice is quite stressful enough without the added fear of the past catching up with you, or (if you're human) a heavy conscience at cheating someone more deserving than you out of a TC. I disagree that "every else does it". Most people would be too scared to contemplate it. You need to wipe the slate clean, grow up and get wise to the fact that a job as a lawyer is not worth committing a crime to obtain.

barrister -18 Mar 2008 | 17:02

As bad as mugging or stealing a car? oh please..get real. How is that even comparable to putting "I got 60%" when you actually got 55%?

Anonymous -18 Mar 2008 | 20:27

What counts is the job you will do as a lawyer. Partners will love you if you work your ass off and even if they do find out one day, that you lied once to get in, they will not punish or disown you, because (maybe unfortunately) they would do the same and lied loads of times in their career.. Wake up, people, hate to disappoint you, but those who make a lie which has a low probability of leaping out go much further in life than the fair honest players.

theGameTheory -31 Mar 2008 | 23:02

"There was someone who once did this, got a job at a MC firm no less, got found out when up for partnership, got bounced..."What a load of tosh!!! So someone with the acumen to be made partner, who undoubtedly can bring clients to the firm/has his own existing clients with the firm (otherwise why make the person partner) is going to be sacked for something so very minor.... not likely. That would make no commercial sense whatsoever. I would suggest that you were either misinformed or that there is more to the story.

Bob -16 Jan 2009 | 16:08

True story, Bob, as it happens.

Anonymous -02 Mar 2009 | 13:39

This may come back to haunt you. One tactic used in "restructuring" exercises is to carefully cross-check all information submitted by employees, and if there is anything out of place those employees can be summarily dismissed without the cost of a normal severance package.

General Counsel -02 Mar 2009 | 16:24

What happened?!

What I'm dying to know is, did you get away with it!?
I know I'll almost surely get a 2:1 in my degree overall but in my first year I didn't do well in individual modules... now applying for TCs, it's too tempting to change the grades... is it worth the risk?

Anonymous -07 Nov 2009 | 11:04