Career Clinic: Am I expected to work late every night?

Am I being really slow here? Why on earth would you want to qualify into a department where your worth is judged by whether or not you're sitting at your desk for 15 hours a day? Seriously, take this review as a timely wake-up call and qualify elsewhere.

Anonymous -23 Apr 2009 | 10:53

"I was averaging 7pm-7.30pm every day, but I made sure I checked that my help was not needed before I left." Those are nice hours, well half hour.In all seriousness though, it's ridiculous that someone is being judged based on the length of time they sit in the office rather than the quality of their work. I've seen dozens of people like that in the firms I've been in, complete clowns who think that the longer you're in the office the better your work is. It didn't matter that most of that time was spent with their gums flapping about some mindless nonsense like the smell of their husband's fart the night before.

FourChavsConsiderRecruitingAnotherChav -23 Apr 2009 | 12:02

No, you are not expected to work late every night, unless the rest of your team is doing that too in which case you just have to put up with it. Assuming people are going home at different times, your "checking" to see if you can go may be perceived as not being willing to stay: do you have your coat on when you check? As you get more senior, you do get more flexibility to manage your hours but you can do this to some extent as a trainee: you just have to do it in the right way. If your team are busy, say "Is there anything more I can help you with?" without adding "because I was planning on leaving now". Or, if it is generally quiet, just go (without asking) but make sure that the team have your mobile number. If you have certain personal commitments in the week that are more important than others (and as you get more senior you learn to limit what these are) you will be more likely to be able to go to these if you distinguish these occasions from others where you are willing to stay. (And never ask when a completion is going to finish if you have plans - it drives associates crazy!)

Associate -23 Apr 2009 | 12:10

You're not playing the game, isn't that the problem? Yes you might say it's wrong that you have to put in lots of face time at the office, it's such rubbish etc, but if that is how your dept is, that's what you have to do. Another part of the same dept may be very different, often depending on the partners and senior associcates that work there and their work/life balance mindset. You might try to redeem yourself by behaving differently when you move depts, but I don't think there's any point in having words with your current supervisor, he's already made up his mind about you. Another thing: I agree with the poster above - don't put on your coat and then go and ask your boss whether you can leave now. That will be perceived as I want to go home and I don't really care if you're still stuck here. Be a team player, stay until the deal is done. In fairness to your bosses, they don't know that they might suddenly need you at 9pm to proof read some circulars because the signing has been brought forward by a day. If you're not there, well the other trainee will do it, and he will get the credit.

May -23 Apr 2009 | 12:58

Yes, it's tough. There will always be peple who like to be seen in the office every night (and these people often do bugger all during the day while you are efficiently getting your work done) and there will always be people who like to encourage such behaviour. It is basically a macho trait - I think a lot of men (in particular) want to be seen by their partner/spouse as the big breadwinner, or maybe they don't actually want to be home early enough to help with the dinner and the kids. Anyway, it is a pity your appraisal focused on your timekeeping rather than the quality of your work. If you feel that you did not get adequate feedback on your actual work, perhaps you could ask for such feedback, and not mention the point about hours. Is there a trainee partner you could speak to - perhaps your supervisor is well known for giving unfair reviews...

Annon -23 Apr 2009 | 13:12

Sorry, but you can't be expected to sit around 'until the deal is done'. Maybe that's how it works in some departments/firms, but that's just wrong. There is more to life than sitting in the office until 2am on the off-chance you might be needed to do something... Check nobody needs you anymore (appearing willing to stay as long as it takes) then leave. Life is more than face time.

Anonymous -23 Apr 2009 | 13:12

I agree with all the posters above. Unfortunately, this scenario is being experienced by people all over the city. It's just a fact of professional life in large firms - they'll always be someone willing to stay that extra half an hour or do the really crap work to get ahead. Once you realise this then leaving the office at 7.30 (which is still a 10-hour day) becomes easier. If you want to be judged solely on the quality of your work, get out of the law or go to a smaller firm where people are more interested in having a balanced life. I certainly wouldn't want to qualify in a department where face time is so important. Good Luck!

MC trainee -23 Apr 2009 | 15:16

I think they're politely saying that your face doesn't fit. The other trainee who you believe leaves half an hour after you (how do you know?) is still putting in about 14 hours more a month.

Bogglin -23 Apr 2009 | 15:36

Life is way too short to be bogged down at work every night with no home life. Next thing you know, you'll be throwing yourself off a bridge and your firm will mourn you for a week or two and just get on with it! Is it really worth it?

unreasonable man -23 Apr 2009 | 17:37

This is such nonsense. Why is the other trainee still there - because they spend the day on the internet and then have to do their work in the evening. The mantra should be 'work smarter, not longer'. If you have to work silly hours it's either because you are inefficient or because you are working for a firm which does not want to resource itself properly (all too common in law firms - partners are too keen on their own profits). Therefore, I agree with the post above - do you want to work for a firm which measures your worth by how long you stay in the office rather than the quality of your work and handling of client relationships? Difficult in this economic climate, but if you can move on qualification, do. And bear in mind that your firm may be looking for excuses to get rid of people/not keep people on, so don't take it too personally, I imagine lots of people will be having much worse appraisals this year so that they can be dismissed if the economic conditions continue without too much difficulty. And don't forget the "leaving the computer on and jacket on the back of the chair trick".

Helen -23 Apr 2009 | 17:41

I wonder what time you and this other trainee start in the morning? But seriously, this is a question on the working culture of the department. Do you fit in with this long hours culture? If not then you might want to look elsewhere. If in these recession times there is no elsewhere then it might be worth fitting in with the culture until there is an elsewhere.

Partner (anon) -23 Apr 2009 | 17:53

Forget about the hours. How good is your work? Are you able to log more than 6 hours of chargeable time a day without working late? As a practice manager, I would say to associates that I wanted 6.5 chargeable hours a day from them. I also told tham that I didn't care which hours they were. It's got to be quality and recoverable. Those that could do it could leave the office any time they liked and were judged on the content of their timesheets. If you have to put in 12 hours to make half of them chargeable than you have a problem. If not, hit your targets and go to the pub with everyone else.

consultant -23 Apr 2009 | 18:12

Why would you want to work with people like that? Seriously, you only need to be seen to be there if the partner or associate you are working for is there. If they are not there to supervise you I'd make like a shepherd and get the flock out of the office. Next time they comment on your hours tell them that you are happy to put the time in and do the work and you are big enough to decide when to start in the morning and when to leave at night. Provided that you are putting in the time to do the tasks assigned to you, that's all that counts.

No B S -23 Apr 2009 | 18:36

The OP didn't say the other members of the team were (a) going home or (b) time-wasting in the day. The OP said they were busy. If it is about face-time, I totally agree with the other comments - go home. But if the department is genuinely busy and they need you, you have to stay, do the work and manage your time properly (see my previous post). Work smart. If you don't want to qualify there because of it, that's fine but do bear in mind the economic climate.

Associate -23 Apr 2009 | 18:53

As a recruiter in the market, this is very simple: working these sort of hours is pretty much the norm in private practice. Sad as it is to say, if you don't the firm will invariably find someone who will. As a trainee, you are merely preparing yourself for life as an associate - i.e. gruelling billable hours targets which will typically mean gruelling hours. Let's face it, all City firms are the same in this regard and, whether you like it or not, the hours you keep will always form part of your assessment.

Anonymous -23 Apr 2009 | 18:56

"Working these sort of hours is pretty much the norm in private practice"? I'm not sure what planet the last poster is on but that's just nonsense - maybe in the magic circle but no one else expects you to work 14 hour days every day. It is certainly true, though, that there is a long hours culture in some firms, and in my experience you will do better pissing about for 10 hours (because it's SO macho to still be in the office at 8pm) than working productively for 8 hours and going home at 6pm. I thought that billing £300k a year (we're talking regional associate hourly rates here) was enough to prove that I was an extremely hard-working, efficient and productive individual worthy of promotion, but no, the one thing that got raised time and again at my appraisals was my "lack of visibility" in the office because I went home at six. Pathetic. Thank goodness I've got out of there.

Lawyer with a life -23 Apr 2009 | 23:54

I worked in a team were presenteeism like you describe was rife. I succeeded there by going along with it and putting in very long hours. This was financially rewarding but cracks started to show in my health and my relationship. I subsequently moved to a different firm where my boss comes round at 5.30pm and encourages us to go home. Her attitude towards a smart working practice means the team works hard during the day and also has a life. What I'm saying is you can't change things if that's the culture of your team, so think very carefully about whether you want to qualify into such an environment. There are probably other teams in your firm that have a more sensible attitude to working hours.

Business Development Exec -24 Apr 2009 | 00:35

In a nutshell, be seen to be playing the game or go and play a different one.

Finance Monkey -24 Apr 2009 | 08:54

Take the hint and act accordingly. Remember, such attitudes will not change despite you changing your behaviour. Look elsewhere and don't let it break your sense of self, which is how most of these places thrive.

takeahint@hotmail.com -24 Apr 2009 | 17:58

The fact that people are prepared to accept the appalling hours in this job is the very reason that such an absurdity is perpetuated. It's utterly ridiculous, and if more people at a junior level took a stand, I might have found this career bearable for a bit longer. The only reason partners expect their associates to work long into every night is because the same happened to them. It's like fagging at school. If we could normalise working hours in law, the clients would cotton on pretty quickly, and it would be far more productive for everyone involved. So my advice? Do it for a bit, if you can be bothered to work 12 hours a day and weekends (which I will never be prepared to do, no matter how much money I'm paid). The likelihood is that in a couple of years you'll be sick to death of being a lawyer, and you'll quit (or get secretly shoved out) and come to the swift realisation that there really is more to life that professional proof-reading, the filling-in of square brackets on precedent documents which will never be looked at ever again, and the pretence that you enjoy working with anally-retentive, anti-social, deeply bitter and frustrated losers (like me).

US Associate -26 Apr 2009 | 22:44

When a deal is on at the magic circle, the expectation is that you will stay back and do the job. I have two weeks in a row 15 hours billable time.

Magic Circle Trainee -27 Apr 2009 | 00:47

Be careful just how much slog you put in - if you don't get reciprocity out, then do just what you need to do and make sure you have a life outside the office.

ANON -29 Apr 2009 | 18:56

Working Time Directive! You are working for lawyers - practice what the law preaches.

ANON -30 Apr 2009 | 20:51

People who take 12 hours to complete an 8-hour job do not impress me.

Anonymous -04 May 2009 | 22:47

"When a deal is on at the magic circle, the expectation is that you will stay back and do the job. I have two weeks in a row 15 hours billable time." - Posted by: Magic Circle Trainee, 27 Apr 2009 | 00:47

Spot the ridiculous first seat trainee.

Secret Squirrel -09 Jun 2009 | 16:07

Time spent at work

If people are in the office late simply for the sake of being seen to stay, that means two things: one, the firm's culture sucks, and two, you're a loser for buying into it. If on the other hand you're genuinely, genuinely needed, then stay around - you should get kudos for doing it if your firm has its head screwed on the right way. As for the magic circle trainee's comment above about having 2 weeks' worth of 15-hour billable time - congratulations, but is that really what you want to be doing for the rest of your career as a lawyer?

Paul -20 Jan 2011 | 16:46

You got what you wanted!

One assumes you were aware of the culture of the firm when you applied for/accepted a TC? If you don't want late nights or to just be a battery hen why did you go to a City firm?

Sarah Williams -23 Jan 2011 | 09:10

Find a better department

As the other commentators have said, it sounds like the culture of this department (and possibly this firm) is one of presenteeism. There really isn't much that you can do about it, and right now you'll probably have to fall in with the culture of making your work expand to fill the hours until 9pm if you want to be kept on after qualification. Not all successful City firms are like this - the good ones expect you to put in the hours to do a job for the client, not just to hang around for the sake of it. When you're qualified, make the move to somewhere better, because this department is unlikely to change. It will attract the sort of people who have so little going on in their life that they need to spend all their time in the office to feel important.

Anon -24 Jan 2011 | 09:44