Career Clinic: Is corporate compatible with a life?

Don't you know you can't have your cake and eat it? There is nothing wrong with wanting to work less hours than the average City slave but it is greedy to expect to be paid top rates to do so.

Anonymous -28 Feb 2008 | 12:53

Is this a joke? it begs the question what exactly the poster has been doing in corporate so far if this is a serious question?

Anonymous -28 Feb 2008 | 12:55

No, it's not compatible unless you are a PSL or work in a very small firm. If you want a life outside work, qualify into a less macho area.

Helen -28 Feb 2008 | 14:51

If you can't stand the heat then get out of the boiler room!

Massive name -28 Feb 2008 | 15:04

If you want to want to be a corporate lawyer I am afraid you will have to be prepared to stay up all night, often for no good reason other than to show just how late you can stay up and wave your bits around. Go in-house if you really want to continue as a corporate lawyer, go in-house. There are just as many egos but you probably get to go home earlier. You also have the advantage of being the client instructing outside law firms so you can go and have a life while they wile away the hours showing off.

anonymous -28 Feb 2008 | 16:08

Yes, it is possible. I spent five years at a MC firm in corporate and got shafted. I'm now at a US firm, albeit a not very well known one. I get paid quite a lot more than I did while at the MC firm, and my hours are infinitely better. I still have to work very hard occasionally (e.g. at signing/closings), but generally speaking I am out of the door by 7pm and very, very rarely work weekends. How is this possible? First, because of the deals we do here - whilst profitable, we are not working on the crazy multibillion-dollar deals that you might do elsewhere. Secondly, I try to do the best that I can in my job, but I do not seek to 'impress' my superiors by billing crazy hours - so far my employers haven't had a problem with this as they are happy with the fact that clients are satisfied with the work I have done for them (and therefore hopefully will give more work to the firm in the future). So it is possible, although admittedly you might have to put some with some shaftings for the first few years of your career until you find the right position/niche for you.

Associate -28 Feb 2008 | 16:18

Corporate law, like all areas of law, is driven by the demands of the clients. M&A clients, especially private equity clients, can be incredibly demanding and usually wish to get things done as quickly as possible. They often work very long hours themselves so are not interested in whether their lawyers have a life or not. If you want to succeed, you have to work as hard as the client demands. If you want corporate work but less demanding clients, such as businesses for which an acquisition is a major event rather than their bread and butter, then keep away from the firms with private equity clients - which I suspect means staying at a middle-sized firm.

Anonymous -28 Feb 2008 | 16:28

If you want the money, you have to put in the hours. You are not being paid a high salary just for legal expertise but as "compensation" for not having a life. The best you can hope for is to work in a firm where there is no face-time. This means that on the rare occasions when you can leave at 6pm you actually leave instead of having to hang around looking busy.

Sooty Speaks -28 Feb 2008 | 16:44

Oh dear, another naiive poster. Look, the simple reason why City lawyers put in long hours (apart from billing targets, and personal greed) is because of the volume of work and client-driven deadlines. You make a shed load for your firm and you can have a nice slice of it. Even if you were the best corporate lawyer in town, your attitude would suggest you would tell your clients, 'sorry I can't do that tonight because I am leaving at 5pm'. The corporate law world does not work like that and even if did, you would not command the sort of salaries that are on offer in the City. Next question please.

May -28 Feb 2008 | 17:44

However, I do believe it is possible to have a legitimate interest in business, enjoy the kind of work and not have a massive ego and simply be in it for the money. Therefore, for my own benefit, I'd like to ask an additional question: Can you enjoy corporate work in, say, a west end firm or somewhere else, earn less cash but work reasonable hours generally, with peaks/obvious troughs when there is something big on?

Anonymous -28 Feb 2008 | 19:44

It's all about the balancing act - you can have your 9-5 job but with it you probably won't get the high profile/quality work you'd get if you were to sign your life away (oh, and you also probably get the same pay..!). I qualified last Sept myself and am in the opposite position - I'm in the regions wanting to break into the City. I don't mind the long hours as I know financially it'll be worth it - it just depends what you're willing to give up. So far as your applications go, I'd say get in touch with agents about 4-5 months before you're due to qualify. Good luck, and hope you find the ideal job...!

rainmaker -29 Feb 2008 | 13:25

It's hard because corporate law fetishes long hours, often for the sake of it. M&A lawyers are notorious for arsing about until late afternoon so they can say they closed the deal at four in the morning. You might want to try a practice area with a bit less chest-beating machismo.

Anonymous -29 Feb 2008 | 13:48

If you want to be involved in corporate work and get paid corporate rates, but don't want to give up your life, tax might be a good option. Tax lawyers don't tend to do all-nighters on verification/disclosure monkeywork, and they actually have to engage their brains on a regular basis, even at junior PQE levels. If you're good at it, you'll get paid more than the corporate lawyers, you're in a safer position in a recession and you won't need your own client base to make partner. Having said all that, most people would rather punch themselves in the face 2-3 times a day than face the prospect of a life in tax, but you might be surprised in practice. (By the way, I'm not a tax lawyer but I did do a pretty cushy summer seat in tax during my traineeship.)

Anon(ymous) -29 Feb 2008 | 14:48

The replies to this just show what a load of arrogant bullsh** there is from people who think that because they work in the City they have to brag about the long hours. If you love corporate work and are good at it, do it: if your client needs you to meet a deadline, you will not mind because it's a job you love and working to a deadline can be exciting. Simple as that. Working in-house does not guarantee an early departure from the office: it just depends on the number of deals and deadlines that apply and, speaking as a client, I am happy to accept that the external lawyers I instruct have a life.

In-House lawyer -29 Feb 2008 | 16:19

For me it depends what your 'life' entails - do you have good reasons why you want to reduce your hours? If you have a good reason, perhaps you should see how they feel, but can't help think what planet are you living on if want the pay but not the work

Anonymous -29 Feb 2008 | 17:16

"For me it depends what your 'life' entails - do you have good reasons why you want to reduce your hours? If you have a good reason, perhaps you should see how they feel, but can't help think what planet are you living on if want the pay but not the work"I think this post is a tad unfair - plenty of people work at City firms and earn very good money - but still have a life because they don't work in banking or corporate - they work in employment or tax or somewhere else where they can work reasonably regular hours (especially if they don't do loads of corporate support). And much of the long hours culture is exactly that - a culture and macho posturing. It's often not necessary at all - and often is required because of bad organisation - not because of client demands. I think you have to really really love corporate or really really love the money. If you don't, work in a small firm or work in a different field.

Helen -29 Feb 2008 | 19:30

Lots of predictable replies, but no one has addressed one of the main reasons you will inevitably work late if you are a corporate lawyer at a large firm. Two words. Investment Banks. The comment above about M&A lawyers messing about until 4 is true indeed, but overlooks the fact that they may well not have anything to do until the bank client calls at 4 /5 o'clock. Then the bank says "I want X by the time business opens tomorrow". Partner agrees, no choice, else work goes elsewhere next time. Cue lawyers working through the night. Same thing the next day, banks review, digest, think up new chores in time for that 4pm catch up con call. Little sympathy from the bankers, as they are also working hard. But then, they get a massive bonus, and you don't. Most investment bankers think corporate lawyers are mugs for this reason. You won't escape this cycle at a large firm doing corporate. Either move to a smaller firm, or do something other than corporate. Believe it or not, your interest in business will serve you well in other areas of law.

Anonymous -01 Mar 2008 | 00:16

Hi, I'm the one who posted this question. Thanks to all the serious responses, they are really helpful. And the other responses just make me realise how many idiots work in the City! I'm looking for job satisfaction and a comfortable life, not a heart attack and divorce by the time I'm 40! Good luck to you lot, I'll start applying for more relaxed West End jobs where it isn't all about "how many days can I go without seeing my wife and kids"!

Anon -03 Mar 2008 | 12:04

I applaud the OP on his conclusion. You have asked yourself the question what makes you happy and answered honestly and correctly. If I thought my job was a risk to my health, family and/or enjoyment of life, the firm wouldn't see me for dust...

Associate, US Firm -03 Mar 2008 | 16:19

Hear Hear. I see nothing wrong with the megalomaniac who wants to get divorced or simply use hookers. Equally, I see nothing wrong with those who do not want luxuries or long hours but a family. What I dislike are the hordes of young lawyers complaining about everything and doing nothing about it. Either love it or leave it, please.

Anonymous -03 Mar 2008 | 16:57

This question does not even justify an answer. What exactly do you enjoy about corporate work if you don't enjoy the buzz of the long hours? The simple truth is that you wouldn't survive in the corporate department of a city firm.

US Associate -03 Mar 2008 | 18:35

Is there 'a buzz' about long hours? What, in themselves? Not the work? That's a case of not seeing the woods for the trees. It also sounds like the typical bollocks that corporate associates under the mistaken impression that they are in some way hard come up with.

Anonymous -04 Mar 2008 | 16:05

The "buzz" of long hours? Well, rather you than me - I don't want to spend more than 35 hours a week in the office thank you very much (and would prefer to work part-time if the mortgage permitted) - I have a life to lead outside.No doubt some witty soul will now say "but 35 hours IS part-time". Ha ha!

Helen -05 Mar 2008 | 13:03

At the end of the day it all comes down to whether you live to work or work to live. A few very driven people certainly fall into the former category but in your twilight years how many people look back and wish they'd spent more time in the office? It's true as some posters have said that you could put in the hours for a few years, pocket the money and run, and if you're young and single then I guess you've nothing to lose, but those sort of macho long hours are pretty much incompatible with children and any semblence of a normal family life. Do you really want to be giving yourself RSI of the thumb on the Blackberry wheel when your first-born is delivered, or patch in your daughter's first birthday party to a conference call from your completion meeting? Believe me there are people out there who will be reading this and thinking (without a hint of irony) "What's wrong with that?" but you have to decide if you're one of them.

Anonymous -06 Mar 2008 | 16:29

I agree that looking US could be the way forward. You have the inevitable late nights, but if they're only at the end of a deal, you can live with them. I'm in M&A at a US firm and have two different weekday evening commitments a week. Sometimes i miss them (last night I was up until 4 on a closing..) but in general i'm out before 7pm. If you like the work, you can certainly put up with a few late nights, but as long as it's not too often i don't think this means that you'll be divorced by 40 or will have given up on much...

Associate, US Firm -07 Mar 2008 | 15:16